I was rereadin the thread from about a month ago on pluggin rods and noticed the one post from Bob stating that "all the guides have their rods nearly parallel to the water's surface when plugging ... most private boats have the rods skyward" So the question is what is the "right" rod position for backtrollin plugs??? What I mean is at a right angle to the boat, a 45 degree angle to the boat, stright out the back, or does it matter as long as the rod is parallel to the water.
Thanks and tight lines, Jeff

Jeff ,my Emu voyeurism brother (we should have taken pictures of RT) the rod should be parallell to the water, the angle that it leaves the boat does not matter ,by pointing the rods to the outside it covers more water if its a narrow slot then you could bring them closer together to make that situation work... thats my input and my limited knowlege,pulling plugs on my cataraft is a lot of work,because it's so responsive ( some cats aren't ) so I don't do it enough...but I'm ready to try boondoggin from my Cat though

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Row Quietly and fish a Cataraft }<<(('>----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

i have pulled plugs for about 8 years and and have found that the lower the rod tip is to the water the better they work. when someone says the rods should be parrell they mean that the rod should run almost flat out the front of the boat. if you put your rods in the holders aiming up it causes the line to want to pull your plugs up and away from the bottom. you can put your rods to low and that defeats the rod absorbing the violent strike and usually means a lost fish. i like to have my rods just a little higher than straight out. this way i can see the action of the plug on my rod tip, which is extremely important. as far as running rods at an angle to the side i almost never do that. i like my rods running straight forward and side by side. i want the fish to see one plug and if he moves to have another one right in his face. i fish the smaller to medium sized rivers with defined runs. another trick i learned is to place markers on my line to make sure both plugs are at the same distance from the boat. well i hope this helps

[This message has been edited by tyeeterror (edited 06-28-2000).]

Well my 2 Emu chasin bros to the North do have room for knowledge about plugging. I have some intricate posts about it on our Ifish BB (more on the old one) but I'm too lazy to re-type them. I will say that for medium to deeper slots I prefer the rodtips low to the water, proper line length so as to have the plugs near bottom but NOT dredging it, and the side rods spread wide in larger river wide holding water. However, I do hold the rodtips higher for the shallower water at upper end entry and for the tailouts because I only want to reel in a little line for clearish shallow water so as not to spook the fish with the boat commotion; thus the rodtip raise for those places. The exception is when the water current & color are up this makes the plugs more prone to popping to the surface, so I lower the tip even in shallower water when that occurs. As for lateral angle on the side rods I like the holder postion one notch downriver of 45 deg. straight out, to better facilitate setting the hook. On the back rod, don't lower it so much that it's straight parallel with the line; turn it or raise it just a little. - Steve Hanson

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 06-28-2000).]

Not sure I agree about any need to set the hook??? I have observed that the fish hook themselves. They don't nibble away at a plug they pretty much slam it. Other than that I think reels post is about how we do it here. The true art of plug pulling really is being able to read the water and determining where the fish will be. Nothing worse " or more of a crack up" than watching some yo-yo rowing dead center down the middle of the river with the rod tips way up and about 100 yards of line out. I may have misunderstood the set the hook part. Thats one reason I don't like people to hold the poles in their hands when pulling plugs. 1> I can't control how the rods are being held in relation to the water or anything else for that matter. 2> When a fish hits the plug it usually scares the hell out of the guy with the pole in his hands who out of reflex gives it a big old "yank" To answer your question I would have to say just one setting above or parallel

As I mentioned before, flat as can be and also as straight forward as can be ... do your best to minimize any load on the rod for maximum effectiveness. An excellent product can be found at www.ram-mount.com that puts a dual ball & socket joint bewteen the boat and the rod holder. this not only gives you a small "outrigger" for outside rods ... it also gives you unlimited positioning potential.
And B-Run ... to catch fish with a plug consistantly takes much more than reading the water ... there is an "art" to working them. Some guys have it, some don't

Bob is correct...good plugging is a art. It is also critical to have good tuned plugs. The reason for the lines to be parallel to the water is so the plugs get maximum dive depth from the length of the line. It turn this will help you cover more water in a hole by lengthing the bottom coverage of the plug. And yes Bob is a excellent plugger (please refer to his picture section everyday if you doubt it).

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Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

Who could doubt Bobs good at pulling plugs !!! And I agree with him. Nothing sweeter on this earth than working down and seeing several roll about 20 feet in front of your set.. Just watching the tips "knowing" that somebodys gonna get slammed any second know.

Its what keeps me coming back all these years. Oh yeah , Feeling the stop on a fly rod with a sink tip on the Bulkley ain't to bad either ..... !!!!

Fellas-
I may have just stumbled onto something...I almost always pull plugs, and have LOUSY luck. I use about 110 ft. of line out and try to keep the plug tapping the bottom every 4-8 seconds. Should I run the plug further from the bottom? I could move downriver more quickly, tip the rod upward from horizontal, or run shorter or longer line out. I would really like some help with my technique here.

Wit - That's too much line out. Fish will sometimes hit a "dredging" plug but it's not as productive because the action is not as good. And if one does hit with 110 ft. of mono line out it won't hook itself well before you have time to pick up your rod to set it. Ideally, it would be nice if you could run your plug about 8" off bottom and SLOWLY backtroll it into their noses; especially for Kings. But fish will come up off bottom, sometimes several feet, to hit a plug. I've done experiments on clear water steelhead by climbing a big tree limb out over coastal holding water (Necanicum R.) to see how far steelhead would come up for a plug. I had my buddy go well above the hole and work a size 50 Hot Shot in dark green metalic (I called this the "Green Machine" because it's so productive in gin clear water). This shallow diver looked to be about 3' under the surface as I enjoyed watching winter steelhead move up 5' or more to either investigate it or hit it! We let the hole rest awhile between fish. The fish won't move as far in water temp extremes. I have also sat on a rock over a real deep clear hole and fished size 30's at about mid water level and had Kings come up to hit them. However, it is more productive to get them closer to bottom. My point is that I would rather be 2' off bottom than have it constantly dredging. A good rule of thumb: At a slow steady backtroll you have too much line out if, with the rodtip up about 4' over the water, you pull it toward upstream and feel the plug hitting bottom. Conversely, with around 50 ft. of line out, if you hold the rodtip only 4" above the water and pull it slowly toward upstream and don't feel bottom at all then let a little more line out. As mentioned above, it is best to have all the boat's plugs out about the same distance. And it's better to keep your rod more parallel with the tip lower to the water than have the tip raised high (except in real shallow slower running clear water at times). The reason for this is because when your tip and line are high off the water the pivot point where the wiresnap connects to the eyescrew or imbedded wireloop moves to a less than ideal spot, causing the plug to angle slighly improperly, resulting in poorer action and a proneness to popping to the surface in faster water. Having the tip close to the water also enables you to get deeper on a shorter line when necessary, as mentioned. Tip: for really deep holes, especially if the length of the hole is short or a boat is not far downriver of your position, dip the rodtip 3 or 4 ft. down into the water to gain a quicker and deeper presentation. I've had other boaters give a quizical look at us when doing this until I bring the rodtip out bent down with a big King headshakin'. I think it's rarely necessary to let more than 70' of line out. And when I'm going to fish a lot of deeper water, mostly for Kings, with longer lines out I prefer to have the real thin superbraid non-stretch line, with a small swivel and 50" mono leader. When a fish hits it partially hooks itself, so only give your rod a brisk lift to make sure it's set deep. Don't set it real hard. - If you are not getting fish with plugs then other things could be awry too. Foremost is making sure to tune the plug to dive straight down and even, not going off more toward one side, by adjusting the eyescrew or imbedded wireloop slightly away from the direction it moves toward. Make sure the hooks are sticky sharp! Always keep your hands and feet in the boat at all times because ... oops, different story ... Always keep your hands and lures washed and rinsed clean, then put a quality scent on the hooks &/or a little on the top center. Don't put scent on the sides or belly of plugs because it can dampen the effective flash. Be sure to use good brands of plugs (such as Wiggle Warts, Tadpolys, and Hot Shots). Use the proper sizes and colors for any given water condition (such as smaller and metalic for clear water steelheading or bigger and flame red for murkier water Kings, etc.- ask at good local tackle shops; too many to post here and it varies for different areas). Good luck. - Steve




[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 06-30-2000).]

Rt,

What do you do for hook mods on your plugs? Appreciate the info.

Thanks to all for the input. Tried to use some of it today on the Cowlitz. All I can say is it is harder to back troll than it looks. What's that old saying practice, practice, practice. Well if backtrollin' is an art as Bob said, I have a lot to strive for.
Tighth lines, Jeff

Fishtick - For the 3 plugs I mentioned it varies. Hot Shot's stock hooks are pretty good now. Most Tadpolys are good stock and some can use one size larger. Wiggle Warts need either one size larger hook, or as I like to do, remove both stock hooks on the standard size and put a 2X treble on a 1 1/4" beadchain and connect that to the belly Wireloop with splitrings (better than the tail wireloop). This has consistently done a better job of solid hookups, particularly on Kings. You can also do it on the Mag Warts with one size larger treble. Another thing to try in the fall is using a 2/0 or 3/0 siwash on the chain in water that has a lot of leaves in it. Or where required by regs. Try metalic red hooks as an alternative to compare effectiveness. Keep re-checking to see that the hooks are kept sticky sharp! - RT

R.T., as always you have good solid advice we can all learn from. However, I thought I'd pass on my findings with the Mag-warts. I use the 1 1/4" bead chain and I put either a 3/0 or 4/0 siwash on it. My hook-ups %has increased alot over the use of the 2/0. I feel the hook-span on the 2/0 doesn't give the "hook-up presence" as the larger hooks. I very rarely fish any of my plugs with trebles and have never had a problem with the "swing and a miss" syndrome. R.T., I was wondering if you or anybody out there has fished the Quickies with singles?

Steelyhorn,

Regs have had us using singles on Kwikies and Flattys the past couple years on the Satsop. Some guys take both trebs off and use a single siwash on the tail, or off a bead chain from the belly. I prefer using singles on both with a barrel swivel. I use 4/0 on the K-15/T-50 sizes and 3/0 on the K-14/M-2 sizes. The plugs seems to run better with the larger size hooks than with smaller ones.

I haven't had any problems hooking fish and the singles seem to hold better than trebs when the silvers pull their barrel-rolling technique.

The only problems I've had are tangled hooks when I cast the plugs, which we often do for silvers on the Satsop. But this isn't a problem when backtrolling them for Kings.

Don't forget to wait on the hookset when using singles, as it seems even more important to wait for them to turn with the plug than it does using trebs.

Good luck.......


Fish on........

Thanks for the comment Steelyhorn. To clarify, I meant 2/0 or 3/0 for the standard Wart, and I agree with you on 3/0 or 4/0 for the Mag Wart (the bigger ones for Kings). As for the "quickies with singles", ya I've had my share, but never taken one fishing (sorry, couldn't resist that setup ) - Steve

R.T., great comeback! However, now you've got really confused. After 10 yrs of marriage I was starting to believe "quickies and singles" had something to do with fishing and you go and remind me it has a dual meaning! Therepy won't be cheap!!!!! On the serious side, Have you guys (Dan S.) had anyluck altering your Quickies/Flatties to reduce the number of crippling takedowns only to come up empty. I keep all my hooks extra sticky sharp and still cannot believe it when a nasty old kings takes my pole tip on a site seeing trip underwater only to pop right back up. It is simply amazing!! I cannot get the dang things out of the boat without hanging up on every single thing in the boat yet somehow these fish can take it in there mouth and STILL spit it out.. I've tried afew different things but haven't gotten what I percieve as the perfect setup. I certainly don't expect 100% but I just think there is something out there that I haven't tried that may work better..I like experimenting but I hate the proverbial "swing and a miss". Thanks for any input you guys may have..

R.T., great comeback! However, now you've got me really confused. After 10 yrs of marriage I was starting to believe "quickies and singles" had something to do with fishing and you go and remind me it has a dual meaning! Therepy won't be cheap!!!!! On the serious side, Have you guys (Dan S.) had anyluck altering your Quickies/Flatties to reduce the number of crippling takedowns only to come up empty? I keep all my hooks extra sticky sharp and still cannot believe it when a nasty old kings takes my pole tip on a site seeing trip underwater only to pop right back up. It is simply amazing!! I cannot get the dang things out of the boat without hanging up on every single thing in the boat yet somehow these fish can take it in there mouth and STILL spit it out.. I've tried afew different things but haven't gotten what I percieve as the perfect setup. I certainly don't expect 100% but I just think there is something out there that I haven't tried that may work better..I like experimenting but I hate the proverbial "swing and a miss". Thanks for any input you guys may have..

Can't get back to sleep so I'll put in my .02 worth. That's a common prob with Kwikfish/Flatfish. The most common solutions have been to use one size larger trebles (super sharp)and allow the fish to take it a little longer (like bait) before setting. I have an idea I've come up with that I would like fishers to try, then post the results. My idea came from Mag Warts, and the knowledge that the Kwikfish action has a long and erractic sway, back & forth, such that fish miss a good mouthful of hooks often. I rigged up some to try on fall Kings with one large treble on a 1 1/2" bead chain hooked to the belly eyescrew (took the 2 stock hooks off because the back end sways too far- leave in the back eyescrew or caulk the hole so water won't get in). To aleiviate the problem of the heavy hook sinking too far below the strike zone in slower water I drlled out a Cheater to push down over the treble shank (some break, so I'm thinking about alternatives), to give it more neutral bouancy which will keep it in a stable position in the strike zone. I think this will be an additional attractant too. I have had much more solid hookups on Warts with this rigup, such that I believe it could be the answer for Kwikfish. Let's find out. - Steve Hanson

Rt,

You might consider trying Berkley's floating Power Bait wadded up around the hookshank. It comes in pink or chartruse.