When it became clear that soldiers would be subjected to multiple tours of duty in hostile territory, the clock began to tick on when the first atrocities would be committed.

For how long can you put a person in harms way before ethics, and morals become so much less important then self preservation? At what point does shooting a 3 year old toddler in the head become acceptable?

When we as a country allow and expect soldiers to involve themselves in combat for longer periods of time then were involved in WWII, when we send them for repeated tours of duty in those combat areas, and when there is no end in sight, should we really be surprised that we risk creating soldiers with the souls of monsters?

It does not matter what crimes 'the other side' has committed. It matters what we have allowed ourselves to become. Innocence is an expected casualty of war, but Honor is not. And shooting children in the head has no excuse, none.

By supporting the politics that has put us into a war without end, we all are responsible for these crimes.




VHAWK





Oregonian,

A country that takes on your attitude is the same one that could build a whole industry on the death of civilians. The Third Reich was not a historical anomaly. It happens when people such as you excuse inhumanity because it is convenient.
Don’t deal in the moral equivalent of Zyklon-B.

Similar subjects come up on some political BB's fairly regularly, and the hawks don't seem to mind the contradiction inherent in firmly believing we are in Iraq to remove those who would do evil acts, and then justify our own evil acts because of the enemy's actions.

Are we better than them...or not?

If we are (the justification for being there), then does it make sense to in any way justify immoral behavior on our part with the actions of those who we condemn?

If we're not, then why are we there?

Fish on...

Todd

Man, pretty ugly subject, but here goes.

It's definately wrong what those soldiers did, that day. Definately not the end of it either.

With that aside, I can't entirely blame them for what happened. War must be hell, I've never been there, but plenty of folks in my family have been through WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf 1 and I have never heard anyone ever claim war was a good thing, no matter what the end was. I also have a friend who worked for a military contractor over there, and they have some of the same horrible stories that I heard about Vietnam, a striking parallel to Vietnam. We train our soldiers to be the world's most effective killers in battle, then expect them to differentiate between civilians and unidentified militia, and then to come home after the killing ends and live a "normal" life. I feel for the men who are put in this position, but at the same time our administration over extends them, doesn't support them on many levels and then all the while pretend that they have all they need and the cause is justified. I don't think our soldiers are monsters, but certainly affected and somewhat forgotten about by the powers that brought them there to begin with. It'll be interesting when they return to the US and try to re-integrate themelves into society. Definately more to come,that's an under-statement, I think we'll be seeing some atrocities for years to come, abroad and at home.

Perhaps if a few of the folks making war decisions had any concept of what war was like we may have a different situation in Iraq.

Rather than spending all their time disparaging the reputations of various combat experienced legislators, they ought to be actually listening to what they have to say.

Fish on...

Todd

The real test of values, is holding on to them when doing so endangers your job, your well-being, and your life. With that said, the soldiers that pulled the triggers have some responsibility.

My Lai was stopped by a 24-year-old pilot, Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson Junior. It would have taken only one noncommissioned officer to stop what happened. There are alot of very quality NCO's out there who by example have represented our country in the highest possible sense. Having a professional corp of NCO's has probably kept us out of trouble for this long. I wonder where this units leadership was while the murders of civilians was occuring.

It is painful to write this. It does not take alot of imagination to put oneself in the boots of those young men. It is painful to consider what they have given up. That they should give this country years of their youth, place themselves in constant danger, to the point the stresses finally cause them to slid into an insanity of sorts. The pain from the fires that burn in their hearts from the loss of friends so young.


Innocence carries no burdens, but the knowledge of evil taught over the scent of burnt powder carries with it a weight that we should never place on the shoulders of our bravest youth except as our last resort. And although I feel we cannot lay those soldiers blameless, neither can responsibility be shrugged off by those who have placed them in that hell that makes no angels.

And as long as we leave our troops there, I am afraid there will be more if this to come.


VHawk.

Our people are there in harm's way. No point in agrguing about how that happened at this point. Also true is the fact that we cannot cut and run.
One of our philosophical fallacies that we seem to be stuck on is that we are better than them. Not so, just different. If we give equal weight on the nobility scale, or the humanity scale or the religious scale, or in whatever manner you choose to measure, a value, we come up the same. Our traditions say otherwise, but some traditions are built on smoke. Just ask the tribes about our 'good guy status.'
It appears that some Marines did murder some civilians. They should be punished. The officers that let it happen or that could have stopped it should also be punished. Commissioned or non-comissioned. No favor.
Trouble is, it is really about us and them at that level, and sometimes it is better to kill than be killed. It is hard to fathom that some or our guys would do something like that. But it appears to have happened and it is probably no the first time. Hopefully it will be the last but I have little faith in the matter.

An aside; how many of you have broken up a dog fight and gotten bit in the process? A dog that would never bite you in a one on one basis will sometimes get a piece of you in the heat of the fracas. I deal with Siberian Huskies often and I have been bit in the heat of battle. Goes with the territory and it is more a matter of a piece of me being in the right place at the wrong time.
No parallel here. Just curious.

When it comes to the soldiers on the ground in an actual fracas, "kill or be killed" is going to be the order of the day, with good reason.

Just being soldiers on the ground in Iraq, however, does not automatically make the context of every encounter with a non-American "kill or be killed".

When it is you with guns, and them being unarmed civilians, including women and children, "kill or be killed" is not at play...act like a human, or act like the barbarians we are presumptively there to kill is the context.

"Act like a human" is the preferred alternative in that context.

We all know that removing barbarians is well down the list of reasons why we are there, but at least presumptively it is the reason given by Dumbya and his chickenhawk minions, so they, at least, ought to make sure that we don't act like the barbarians we are purportedly removing.

Fish on...

Todd

AuntyM,

I cannot imagine a circumstance in which shooting a 3 year old in the head at CLOSE RANGE is acceptable. Res ipsa loquitur

This is a tragedy all the way around. I will hazard a guess that during the course of the slaughter that individuals who were responsible for the death of the Marine were killed. It still doesn't make acceptable shooting 9 year olds in the face as they cower under their beds.

I've heard excuses made on the radio for these soldiers; people who have tried to say that in the heat of battle almost anything is excusable. It troubles me to no end.

There is no cause that excuses the behavior, if it is true.

Unless, of course, you believe that child rapists should be released because when they were six they had a kindergarten teacher who called them a "girly boy" once, which lead to their later criminal life.

t.i.c., for sure, but seriously, there is no excuse for death squad executions of unarmed civilians...especially women and children, but the adult males, too.

Fish on...

Todd

I've already commented that I would give the benefit of the doubt to our boys, and it would take very strong evidence of atrocious behavior to get me behind any movement to punish a man for what he does in combat....with that said, I would like to know where to find whatever info is available on this particular incident, anybody have a link to a supposedly reliable source ?


Also, I would like to point out that in the past we as a Country have faced enemies who were well aware of our tremendous value on human life, and have used it against us in combat......it would surprize me none to learn that such things were a factor in this incident. It seems to take very little to get our own media to side with our enemies, even if for appearantly good reasons........does anyone here doubt the bad guys ability to utilize the media ?

I guess I'm saying if our boys just walked in a house and ate dinner with the people and then got up and shot them each in the face, sure that's a war crime at the least, but if they charged into a house in pursuit of known bad guys, and ended up shooting the place up with no survivors, I don't see how anybody half way around the planet can utter a peep in protest, it's not like the badguys are worried about colateral damage......

"it's not like the badguys are worried about colateral damage...... "

And that matters absolutely none. Remember, we are there on the pretense at least of removing barbarians...if we go there and act like barbarians, then it is status quo with lots of dead people.

If we're better, then we have to act like it.

I don't know if there is any public "reliable source" at this point...but at least from what is in the media, this was not a case of hot pursuit with collateral damage...this was a death squad type execution of unarmed civilians.

Fish on...

Todd

Thats the same impression I have.


The shootings did not occur during a firefight. And if they did there is still no circumstance whereby the shooting in the face of unarmed young children is excusable.


Oregonian, so what is our mission? To win the trust of Iraqis and stabilze the country? If the US military loses its credibility with the Iraqi citizenry then it will lose this war. And if we lose this was this incident will be part of that defeat. You can't win Iraqi hearts and minds by indiscriminately separating them from their bodies and souls.

If our mission is to run up a body count, then I suppose this is Mission Accomplished.

My apologies to all servicemen who have been unfairly tarnished by this incident. Even in a war that we should never have been involved in, individuals can still make a positive difference in the lives of Iraqis. There are alot of stories of good soldiers who have made the best of a FUBAR situation.


web page

By Jim Miklaszewski
and Mike Viqueira
NBC News


WASHINGTON - A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children.

One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. “The Americans came into the room where my father was praying,” she said, “and shot him.”


On Wednesday, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the accounts are true.

Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

A videotape taken by an Iraqi showed the aftermath of the alleged attack: a blood-smeared bedroom floor and bits of what appear to be human flesh and bullet holes on the walls.

The video, obtained by Time magazine, was broadcast a day after town residents told The Associated Press that American troops entered homes on Nov. 19 and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.

On Nov. 20, U.S. Marines spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Pool issued a statement saying that on the previous day a roadside bomb had killed 15 civilians and a Marine. In a later gunbattle, U.S. and Iraqi troops killed eight insurgents, he said.

U.S. military officials later confirmed that the version of events was wrong.

Murtha, a vocal opponent of the war in Iraq, said at a news conference Wednesday that sources within the military have told him that an internal investigation will show that "there was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn't been completed.

One military official says it appears the civilians were deliberately killed by the Marines, who were outraged at the death of their fellow Marine.

“This one is ugly," one official told NBC News.

Three Marine officers — commanders in Haditha — have been relieved of duty, and at least 12 Marines in all are under investigation for what would be the worst single incident involving the deliberate killing of civilians by U.S. military in Iraq.

The Marine Corps issued a statement in response to Murtha's remarks:

"There is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process. As soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made, we will make that information available to the public to the fullest extent allowable."

Murtha held the news conference to mark six months since his initial call for "redeployment" of U.S. forces from Iraq.

He said U.S. forces were under undue pressure in Iraq because of poor planning and allocation of resources by the Bush administration.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

Fricken NBC has obviously aligned themselves with the insurgents!!!!

Couldn't you find a MORE reliable source????



I can't wait to see Catie Couric flaunting her AK on the morning show...

Todd,
I'm not going to use this exact incident, but a hypothetical one.....

If a few bad guys attack a small U.S. force, kill and wound a few, then run into a house and kill a civilian or two and take the rest of the occupants hostage, and continue to kill our boys either by direct rifle fire, explosives, or via radio/cell phone, then our boys need to neutralize that threat immediatly, and the remaining civilian deaths go in the "killed by insurgents/terrorists" colum...colateral damage. When you start seeing our boys using Iraqi civilians for a shield, then you can compare their behavior to that of the barbarians.....
If you expect our boys to survive in an absolutely hostile enviroment then they are going to have to have some latitude, if you have our boys behaving in a manner that will guarantee zero civilians deaths, then you have handed the trump card to the barbarians, because it would not take a genious to take those rules of engagement and shove them down the throats of some fine young Americans trying to do the impossible for the unknowing...........

BTW, I've said it before, I DO value every human life, but I have enough sense to know the difference between reality and fantasy, the reality of war is that the whole damn thing is horrible and should be avoidable, but I'll not hold our boys personaly responsible for the position we as a people put them in, I am sorry they have to be there, and I hope they do their job well and get their a$$e$ home in one piece. The idea of our Country picking a few guys out to punish for the media's glory for possibly acting one tenth of a second to quick when three tenths of a second would probably be to late is too much B. S. for me. With todays standards what do you think WWII would be like, you prefer Japanese or German, it's not like they are dropping 1000's of incendary bombs, or atomic bombs on civilians you know....................

Are you making up situations because you don't want to adress THIS situation?

I am making up situations because none of us has access to the facts on "this" situation, and I am man enough to recognize that fact.

Good Lord, have any of you guys ever heard of propaganda ?

I'm sure NBC told you Bush won the election, but you don't believe that, why is NBC golden now ?

Ok hypothetical, lets say they weren't really in the house, but instead were at church choir practice. And insurgents dressed up as Marines actually did the killing. We could make up distracting hypotheticals like that all day. ...I think Dan already said it perfectly.


Oregonian you sure don't have any trouble stretching thin your premises. I'm still not hearing you address anything directly related to this incident. And who said anything about "zero civilians deaths"?

Your best response would be "Man this is terrible if it is true. I don't know enough to be able to make an informed statement other then I feel badly for those soldiers, and any innocents that were killed. " Leave it at that. Nothing political about making a statement like that. It reveals some humanity. Have a cup or two, its good for your soul.

Maybe you missed the part where I said if it is absolutely proven that atrocities have been comitted in cold blood, then that is one thing, but he said she said isn't going to sway me from backing our boys, shame on anyone who says one word against our boys without ironclad proof of intensional avoidable crimes..........

Somewhere there is a mom and a dad for each of those boys, possibly reading this site, if you have a kid or a clue that is enough to keep your trap shut until there is just zero doubt left.

Supporting our troops is more than a bumper sticker......

We can trade hypotheticals 'til the cows come home, but there are things you do, and things you don't.

Republican sympathizers who typically see things in stark black and white (i.e., "we're right, you're wrong") should be called on it right here and now if all of a sudden they find the "gray areas" they are so quick to call "unprincipled" when in the hands of liberals to be attractive places to excuse reprehensible behavior.

They hypocrisy is going to ooze out of this one from the far right...

Fish on...

Todd

Oregonian,

Your a Holocaust revisionist aren't you? No evidence will ever be good enough. Maybe we are all a figment of your imagination.

So what part of the evidence is lacking? Pictures? We have them.

Eyewitness accounts from both sides? Those are available as well.

Bodies with holes in them? Those are available as well.

Motive? Plenty.

Even if there was video it wouldn't be enough.

At the risk of being repetitive, I'll say it again, but in different words...

The pretext for us being in Iraq is to remove an evil dictator who has not followed the "rules of engagement"...but instead has used his power to subvert those who are weaker and under his control.

How in God's name are the Iraqi people better off if we invade their country and then do the exact same thing, justifying it by saying "that's what our enemy does"?

We all know that the Administration's public reasons for invading Iraq are mere pretenses...not worth the paper they are written on...but in the interests of keeping up the sham, ought they not have one bit of tolerance for anything that makes us look like Saddam's death squads?

Ought not Dumbya's supporters show the same zero tolerance? If they are actually buying into the pretense, then it ought to be a no brainer to have zero tolerance. If they don't buy the pretense, but support the other reasons we are actually there, doesn't it still make sense to have zero tolerance to at least keep the pretense viable?

Fish on...

Todd

When the chips are done falling I'd rather admit to you all that you were right to doubt our boys in favor of the media, than to be you admitting to our boys that you were wrong for calling them murderers when in fact they were just doing the job you and I sent them there to do......


As a reality check why don't you take a long walk around the worst part of Tacoma in a nice dress suit for a few hours in the middle of the night with a legally registered handgun in your pocket, use it to defend your life only...........remember you will have to prove to the world that you were in danger before you fired.........is it possible that by the time you can be absolutely sure(and have proof) you would already be dead ?

Now go try it in a foriegn country where you don't speak the language and there isn't any law against "them" killing you, only against you killing them........

I would like to see the eye witness accounts from both sides, if indeed there is complete agreement, then this topic would not be debatable.....


As long as NBC or any other media for profit is the messenger, the message will be suspect.....

We have ALL seen the media screw the pooch for and against every cause out there........

"Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right."

"sources within the military have told him that an internal investigation will show that "there was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

"Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style."

"One military official says it appears the civilians were deliberately killed by the Marines, who were outraged at the death of their fellow Marine."

Oregonian, these are military officials speaking, not op/ed's from moveon.org. It's hard to pin this one on the "liberal media"...they are direct quotes of people who are in a position to know the truth.

Fish on...

Todd

<quote>
Murtha, a vocal opponent of the war in Iraq, said at a news conference Wednesday
<quote>


<quote>
"There is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process. As soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made, we will make that information available to the public to the fullest extent allowable."
<quote>


Seems pretty far from cut and dried to me, please tell me there is a LOT more info available to be accusing our boys of murder on ..........

So are you saying our boys killed their own man in order to have a flimsy excuse to sight in their rifle on civilians, or maybe he died of old age and our boys took advantage of the situation to sight in their rifles on civilians ?


If that guy did just trip an IED that only killed one American, and the rest of the squad was coming through the front door, I don't doubt that he was praying !

I say if you can't stand up for the boys doing the dirty work on our behalf, then at least stay quiet until the doubt is gone, it wouldn't surprize me if a career minded higher officer would sell them out to protect his own career...

No. No. And no. I won't stay quiet when the dirty work involves atrocities committed by armed forces from my country. It is when common people begin to accept the works of hell as normal, that we assign for ourselves a place in history among the dishonored.

And although it is not directly related to the topic, you've used the idea that liberals don't support our armed forces. My idea of supporting the troops is so far different then yours Oregonian. Lip service to our men in combat is your idea of "supporting the troops".

Say nothing bad of them, they are harms way for our sake. I say BULL.

For them that perform with honor and valor I say spread the word of their deeds far and wide, for those that do not, then let them have their proper rewards based on their actions.

I put on a bumpersticker...look at me I am a patriot. I say BULL.

Give them real support. Make sure they have proper and adequate counseling when they get home. Make sure that their kids are taken care of while they are gone. That adequate childcare is available. That their wives have a support system. Make sure that getting healthcare after they return home is not another combat operation. Make sure that they are paid handsomely for their service. Encourage and support their quest for higher education.

Soldiers are people who have the same concerns for family just like any good person. Support them by helping take care of the people they worry about. And provide for them whatever they need when they return so that they are succesful in their pursuit of happiness.

Simple people Put American Troops in harms way, and then applaud them from 10,000 miles away and call it supporting our troops.

I say BULL.

I'll side with you and cheer at their hanging AFTER EVERY REASONABLE DOUBT AS TO THEIR GUILT HAS BEEN REMOVED. You may have heard the phrase," innocent until PROOVEN guilty", I don't think NBC is the place to get the green light to start looking for a rope...


THIS quote is from the article you quoted above;

"There is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process. As soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made, we will make that information available to the public to the fullest extent allowable."


If you want to lead a lynchmob with that as part of your evidence, lead on !

Why do you hate America so much Oregonian that you would allow death squads to run rampant in the name of Freedom , and disparage the finest tradtions of the United States?

And why would you cheer at anybodies hanging? Thats the kind of indifference to life that lead to this atrocity.

What lynchmob are you referring to? The one that's going to hang your sense of morality? Its too late for that, apparently its already dead.

I've listened to enough Limbaugh, and O'Reilly to keep up with your bloated overstatements, mistatements, and misdirection. Your tired cliches are as inviting as the worn out lycra from a fat mans bike shorts. When your ready for some honest discussion, take a little more time with your posts. No need to rush things, this isn't sex.

The lynchmob I refered to is you and others rushing to convict these guys before the investigation is over, which as AuntyM said, is indeed looking grim at this point...

When I said I would cheer at their hanging, that was a figure of speech to illustrate my point that I also think if indeed they are guilty, then punishment needs to meet the crime....I did not literally mean that I would cheer at a real hanging, I assume you understood all of this on the first pass and are just trying to come up with a reply without agreeing with anything I said.

At no point did I say nor imply that there should be "death squads running rampant in the name of freedom", nor anything even close to that, did you pull that whole sentence out of left field as another distraction or what ?

If these guys are as guilty as you think, then I will be just as disapointed with them and the whole situation as you, but like I said over and over, I'll wait for the proof before I say a word against our boys.

Get the chip off your block VHawk, I'm not interested in picking on you personly, nor vica-versa.........

Oregonian,

Expect to take some heat when your defending the troops that have given us an Iraqi My Lai. As more news organizations investigate and reveal more about this, it is getting uglier, not better.


Don't give up your duties as a citizen to question what it is your armed forces are doing. If the matter had not been pressed it would have stayed convienently buried. Sen Murtha took some heat for keeping the pressure up on the Pentagon.

When I cease being indignant at those who would in the smallest way facilitate such evil; by excusing it as a normal part of war, by excusing it because you don't want to hurt morale, by excusing it because you thought the army would do a fine job investigating itself, by excusing it because you just don't want to believe it happened so therefore it didn't, then I wouldn't be a very good liberal would I?

Consider this, just as Muslims should have been universally horrified at the atrocities committed on 9/11 in the name of protecting Islam (and they were not), we should be universally horrified at the crimes committed in the name of protecting America.

I'm leaving the chip right where it is.


VHawk

Vince,

I thought you were in OR on the lower Big C tribs today doing some scouting. Did the rain change the plans?

I was going to head to SW WA this morning, but I've been sicker than the proverbial dog since Wednesday morning.

Apologies for thread drift.

My thought is that in any conflict involving guerilla warfare, like with an insurgency, atrocities by both sides are nearly a given. This could have been anticipated. You put good soldiers in this kind of situation, and some will crack and do the unthinkable. Mai Lai is perhaps the best known example from Vietnam, but there were numerous unreported smaller incidents. I suspect that the stress associated with these kinds of patrols contributes to bringing out the very worst in human behavior. I'm not excusing the behavior, but trying only to explain and understand why it happens.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

"America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

Get well Salmo g. I want you at your scintillating best.
That said by a unscrupulous filamentarian anarchist.

Salmo,


Your explanation is right on. And because it was predictable, the politicians who put those soldiers in that situation are also responsible. I think its spelled My Lai, just for trivias sake. I had to look up the spelling in Wikipedia the first time I wrote it. You probably were thinking of the delicious Mai Tai, which is far more palatable then war crimes.


I am heading to places south in the early morning. But the official scouting trip isn't until next weekend.

VHawk

Vince,

As a junior high class spelling champ (no kiddin') it hurts to see that the older I get, my spelling skills are degrading as rapidly as my short term memory. I don't know Mai Tai, but I learned to appreciate margaritas last winter in Mexico.

Yes, the politicians who send healthy young Americans in their stead to empire build or anything else, share heavily in the responsibility for what transpires. No rational person would put soldiers in that kind of situation and not expect to have incidents like this occur.

Good luck tomorrow. And if you're bound for where I think, shoot me a trip report afterwards. I guess I'm fishing vicariously this weekend. Ouch!

Sard,

Thanks for the good wishes, you filamentarian, you.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

A marine's response:

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/flf/article.php?ID=29

I read it Sard, and it comes from the same place as my thinking. The only real dilemna is what to do with the people who pulled the triggers. What is an appropriate punishment for a soldier who has committed murder, but has done so because he was young and exposed to constant life threatening stresses?

Something horrible happened. An inexcusable crime. But what to do about it? I don't know the answer to that. My thoughts fail me.

I have no easy fix or set of consequences to apply. So many lives lost or damaged (including the marines themselves). War is hell. But that is no excuse. They lost it. You gotta believe they know it. Now it's about paying the price for irreparable damage inflicted. I don't have an answer either. Turning them over to the Iraqis isn't a fix. Just in case someone might think that's the way to go. Too much needs to play out to be sure of what happened.

The article does a good job of capturing the explanation of "why." Society is still left with the unpleasant task of dealing with it, knowing that probably no resolution is just. Part of the life ain't fair concept, I think.

What to do about it???


Yes, as in what would you do if you could make the call on this.

I can see whats coming for the soldiers involved. Is it going to serve our concept of Justice? Probably not.

It is a tragedy from every angle.

Lets just rewind this back to Nov 2000. If we all the same moves again, then maybe we should be smacking ourselves with that whip-thingy from the Da Vinci Code.

Unfortunately in situations like this, the buck stops long before it gets to anyone who is any position of authority...I doubt the punishments will extend much, if at all, beyond those who were in the room pulling the trigger.

Certain politicians will probably spin it to somehow show that we need "more resolve" and use it as an excuse to further the warhawk agenda...nonsensical...yes...but since when has that stopped the war machine?

Fish on...

Todd

Funny you should mention funding of the War Machine...

Budget Gap Means Layoffs at Ft. Lewis

Last weekend there was an article about possibly suspending recruiting because of budget woes.

Damn those liberals and their anti-military ideology; it's gotta be THEIR fault, right?

Bullets and banners cost money, I guess...maybe we ought to limit the amount of bullets that soldiers are allowed to shoot each week?

Maybe they can take turns wearing body armor every other day with an "armor buddy"? Wait a minute, I think they already do that one...

What we need is a good ol' fashioned tax break for the rich to get the economy up and running high, and then we can afford more bullets! Yeah, yeah...nonsensical, right? Please see note above about nonsensical ideas of the warhawks...

Fight a war on the cheap, it takes forever to "win", if ever, and way too many people die all around...and it's always someone else's fault.

Fish on...

Todd

Ration bullets. That reminds me of the British Army Quartermaster as portrayed in the film ZULU. Oh well he didn't have to do all that paper work after all.

I reccomend readinga book called "Flyboys". Same quandry,different generation. Interesting how no matter when or where or for what reasons a war is fought, the same controversy exists. I would caution everyone that it doesn't matter where the news comes from until the war is over and 50 years have gone by and things are "declassified" the real truthabout what is going on overthere will not be heard and for now, no matter what your politics are, the men and women in the service deserve our unyielding support.

Amen

Unfortunately the "real truth" is written by those who hold the pens, and it's pretty clear that those of us here don't have access to the pens...revisionist history has always been a part of war, here and pretty much everywhere else.

Fish on...

Todd

Unfortunately, one is only tried for commission of war crimes if one loses the war. Had Germany not lost WWII, there wouldn't have been justice at Nuremburg.

In the present case, whether the war in Iraq was legal or illegal (and by whose measure?), the U.S. won it in a matter of days. What the U.S. cannot win, is peace through occupation in Iraq; quite a different situation.

So true Salmo

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,100239,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

The other Haditha: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22779

Marine may Call Murtha as Witness
Washington Times | June 15, 2006

A criminal defense attorney for a Marine under investigation in the Haditha killings says he will call a senior Democratic congressman as a trial witness, if his client is charged, to find out who told the lawmaker that U.S. troops are guilty of cold blooded murder. Attorney Neal A. Puckett told The Washington Times that Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine commandant, briefed Rep. John P. Murtha, Pennsylvania Democrat, on the Nov. 19 killings of 24 Iraqis in the town north of Baghdad. Mr. Murtha later told reporters that the Marines were guilty of killing the civilians in "cold blood." Mr. Murtha said he based his statement on Marine commanders, whom he did not identify. Mr. Puckett said such public comments from a congressman via senior Marines amount to "unlawful command influence." He said potential Marine jurors could be biased by the knowledge that their commandant, the Corps' top officer, thinks the Haditha Marines are guilty. More

Sheesh, all Murtha's got to do is claim that he "forgot" who told him. Hell, lapse of memory works time and again for this administration. Just ask rove.

As noted above, the events at Haditha are the result of poor leadership...I think that a good military chain of command starts and ends with one important factor...trust.

When the soldiers on the ground trust their immediate supervisors, who in turn trust their commanders, all the way up to the CinC, then all of them are on the same page. When they are given orders that they don't know the reason behind, or the intelligence behind, that's OK...so long as they trust those giving the orders.

The bond of trust is severely broken in the prosecution of this war...the soldiers in Iraq are being lied to just as much as those of us at home are...the War on Terror, Saddam's links to Al Qaeda, and therefore to 9/11...they know what's up. They're fighting for the corporate interests that are the political bedfellows of the Bush Administration...and they're dying for those illicit relationships, too.

When the bond of trust is broken, and leadership fails, these are the results...and while our soldiers fighting in Iraq are going to need counseling and assistance when they get back, they know they're not going to get it...they see the cuts that Bush is making to VA benefits, soldier pay, forced re-enlistment (aka "stop loss")...they know they are just cogs in his war machine...especially when they see the massive tax cuts that are going straight to the Bush cronies.

Need more evidence of the poor leadership? Click on this link...this is what happens when our soldiers are lied to on a daily basis...

http://www.cair.com/video/marine-hadji-girl.wmv

Fish on...

Todd

The voice of experience. Hear! Hear!
Do we really know what happened at Haditha or are we playing the media's game?

Todd, your last comments make me want to vomit, how can you be so vocal on these matters ?

Oregonian, you're an idiot.

Sincerely,

Todd

Maybe I am an idiot, but reading your opinion on matters you could never understand (what goes on in the minds of men at war...) spouted as fact is enough to make me sick...

Just read a blurb that said two Iraqi Mds created the Haditha massacre scenario out of whole clothe. The authorities are hunting them.
Patience patience. I wanna know what's going on.

Maybe, if you are right about me, then we are both idiots...............


I'm not much on internet name calling, so if want the last word go ahead.

Given the opportunity I think there are a lot of people in the world who would love to set up a situation like "Haditha Massacre", in fact there are probably a few on this board who would like to see it but are only affraid to get caught/hands dirty.

I love it when people make my point for me...

Carry on Oreo, you're doing fine...

Fish on...

Todd

I will have to go back and riffle thru my emails. I'm pretty sure it was in a "Early Brief" on Military.com. However, I will go look.
I mean it could have happened as alleged early on, but there are so many that want to smear our military, and thereby Bush, that I wanted more data. So I've watching pretty close. I hope it was a smear game rather than a real occurence. Civilians take too many hits being in the middle of a fire fight by random chance. Don't need to delibrately add to their misery.

military.com is your source for unbiased news? You're killing me. Can I give a rebuttal based on info I found on BigFatCommie*******.com? One source is useless unless its put into context and the inherent bias is also factored.

And it looks like the "more to come" part has come true, with the announcement of a murder trial of eight marines. Each is charged with premeditated murder, kidnapping, conspiracy and related charges in the alleged abduction and slaying of an Iraqi civilian on April 26. Some of them face the possibility of the death penalty.

They will probably serve some long sentences. They are accused of threatening to kill any fellow marines who talked with investigators. If that turns out to be true, its doubtful they will find any mercy in their sentencing.

The Corps must hate America.

Interesting thread. Appreciate "Oregon's" viewpoint and tenacity. Also appreciate Todd's view point, but the name calling is way out of character. "Oregon" is not the problem here.

Perhaps a new name for this forum is due. What do you think of "Harpers Bizarre"? (not misspelled)

Hmmm, I got kicked in the teeth around here for making the same point about Haditha and our servicemen in combat as you just did AuntyM...

Aunty, "We" weren't looking for any irregularity. These allegations did not come the some investigation by The Washington Post. They came from the combat soldiers who found the bodies of executed women and children. Once again, the initial complaints came from fellow combat veterans who were horrified by what they found.

The notion that "its ok as long as its our troopos that are doing it" has been used to excuse some pretty terrible actions. I don't accept it as a valid argument.


If our #1 priority is the safety of our troops then why are we even there? Its a Republican controlled Congress and White House. If safety were such a priority I wouldn't have needed to donate money to Operation Helmet last year.

If you don't know about Operation Helmet then shame on you. Look it up. Supporting Our Troopsshould be something more then lip service and excusing criminal behavior.

And if our #1 priority is stopping terrorism, does anybody honestly think that incidents like this only serve to recruit more terrorists? Its hard to win hearts and minds by seperating them from bodies and souls.

Aunty,

First of all my fault for not being more clear that it was the first paragraph that was specifically directed towards you. The rest of my last post was a general response to other peoples points. Let me retry that.

And my response to that is that "We" weren't looking for any irregularity. These allegations did not come the some investigation by The Washington Post. They came from our own combat soldiers who found the bodies of executed women and children. Once again, the initial complaints came from fellow combat veterans who were horrified by what they found.


Now to respond to your last post.

It is the responsibility for Democratic peoples to keep check on their Armed forces.


I don't have the power to revoke anyone's right to a trial. I can only convict if I sat on such a trial. And I only have the meagerest power to insist that such a trial occur by exercising my Freedom of Speech.


Considering that we share alot of the same ideas on what "Supporting our Troops" meant, I am dissapointed that you don't find them interesting. By no means did I ever claim them as new. The shame I directed was not for you Aunty. It was for those who limit their support to a faded yellow bumper sticker, and a tattered flag.

VHawk

For what it's worth (and I know it isn't much) "fair trial" has little place in military courts. It is not the same trial you get in civilian life. Nor is it akin to any Hollywood production you may have seen. The military has there own justice system. That is why it is called Military Justice. It could be very ugly. (Geez, that's awful to say)

The evidence presented in a trial might change my opinion on this, but not anymore then the evidence presented before and after that same trial. A jury verdict concerns legal guilt or innocence; right or wrong is often something entirely different. Otherwise we'd all believe that OJ was innocent as soon as the jury found him not guilty. Or if we waited until the trial verdict to pass popular judgement, then we'd all feel safe letting Michael Jackson babysit our 8 y/o sons.

I base my opinion on the quality and quantity of evidence available. Probably more so in the Hamdaniya case than Haditha, is there something that seems out of the ordinary even for combat. Haditha can be explained under the context of combat operations, Hamdaniya cannot. In that case the soldiers are charged with dragging a civilian out of his home and shooting him, and then after removing valuables from his body, leaving him in a field with a poorly planted weapon. Afterwards they threatened to kill any fellow Marines who might feel the need to report what happened. Let me paraphrase the only explanation that any of the accused has released, 'I don't know why were were charged with this, it was out of our hands. We've been ordered to do these kind of operations before.'

What the hell is going on over there? Is Stanley Kubric directing this nightmare?

A tough thread

I think we all need to be on the same side here. At least for now. Passing judgment too early based on media reports is certainly not wise. I have been guilty of that more times than I would like to admit.

I know rage. Not road rage, but the kind where the blinders go up and all focus is on the threat (or perceived threat). Bad decisions can easily be made. I know too that when there is a perception of "I have nothing to lose", watch out. There is nothing more dangerous than someone who perceives that they have nothing to lose.

I'll tell you, my heart really goes out to the soldiers. And I am prompted to ask....

Vince, when was the last time you shook a soldier's hand and just said, "Thanks" while resisting any attempt to paint the war as bad? No matter what you print here, only you know the real answer to that.

At the same time, I have no problem at all picturing Oregonian in the same situation...saying just "Thanks" that is.

At any rate, I certainly hope there will be no "Cheering" when this is over. There can be no winner. I can't say what I feel now...it would get censored, so just use your imagination.

Sorry Aunty, didn't mean to skip over your question. The answer is....they are screwed. With or without any pressure from above normal channels. They have been caught in a situation that makes the Armed Forces look bad and with any adverse comment whatsoever from a superior officer......down they go. Their whole lives will be shot to shait.

War is a Racket!

"Our soldiers have nothing to gain by going to war and everything to lose. War is a rich man's device that, if the truth were known, ignores the will of the people who have no say in it. Modern wars have no heroes but they inevitably produce atrocities and countless innocent victims. There can be no moral justification for civilized people of any nationality taking up arms against one another, unless one nation is directly assaulted by another. War is the tool of barbarians and tyrants and they are provoked by cowards hiding in safe places."

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_charles__060626_war_is_still_a_racke.htm

Aunty,

Yes, with what I've read I have formed a strong impression of guilt. Most people form opinions of innocence or guilt before charges go to trial. Think of all the high profile trials of the last 10 years, how many people can honestly say they didn't have a strong impression prior to the jury verdict? Even so, they should be given every resource and opportunity to raise a vigorous defense. That includes great defense lawyers and the time to put together a case for their defense.


Slab,

I have a fairly stock answer now. Depending on gender I say:


Anybody who would cheer about what these soldiers have been accused of is sick. The whole thing makes me ill. Don't forget the premise of the original post on this thread...that putting normal healthy people under the constant stress of combat for a long enough time and things will start getting twisted and evil. Any combat vets who would disagree with that?

And if its your son or daughter, husband or wife that stuck over there, then the only cheering I will be doing is the day they come home safely.

I have read this thread with great interest and have stayed out of it until now because there appears to be speculation, not testimony involved. However, after reading the entire thread again today (is anybody still at work??), and hearing the news that another atrocity has been uncovered and the accused charged, I can not hold my tongue any longer. We ask these young men and women to do our dirty work and then are shocked when some don't perform up to our standards!! I sincerely hope the basta*ds that have sent our young people into this moral meatgrinder burn in the flames of Hell.

Ditto what Eddie said.

There is an old saying that goes, "Everything after "but" is BS.

Did it ever occur that quite possibly a soldier believes in what he/she is doing? I doubt that they want anything more than to feel proud and appreciated. They stepped up and regardless the outcome, I owe them much.

Slab are you trying to say that its BS that I don't have any appreciation or respect for the sacrifices that are being made daily? That only by putting on my blindfold and waving yellow ribbons off some freaking bridge will I be a good patriot?

No, my little speech always includes the part where I mention I didn't think it was such a hot idea to play in that particular sandbox. Do you know why? Because alot of them have never had the chance to hear it face to face from someone who considers themselves a liberal. They shouldn't live with the impression that half the country doesn't appreciate what they have done. That just because liberals think the war was a mistake, doesn't mean we aren't thankful that there are people who will answer the call to serve their country regardless.

BUT, that doesn't mean I don't respect your "Old Saying".

Hi Vhawk, I know this is kinda late in sequence, but your comment on the 24th about the allegedly biased info on Military.com is questionable at best. Please tell me your approved source for 'unbiased news.' I will gladly compare its'list against Mil'.com for my own purposes at least. I personally believe it is nearly impossible to find an unbiased news source in this day and age. All the players have their own axe to grind. If you happen to agree with their list then you say to yourself "... ahh a reliable unbiased source." Self-delusional at best.
I took a journalism course years ago and at that time there were two sources that were considered unbiased by the bunch rinning the syllabus. They were; The Christian Science Monitor and the Wall Street Journal. Both, I'm sure, suspect today.
And then we have the New York Times, The Washington Post and that rag in L.A. What a contrast.

Sard,

You have a very good point. It was the same point I tried to make and failed. Here is a quote from that same post on 6/24.

And the Christian Science Monitor is still a great source. Which is odd, because without the "Monitor" part, Christian Science is an oxymoron.

And I'll troll that one reallll slooow. Nibble, nibble is that a bite?

Here let me save some of you some typing; I must hate America, little baby Jesus, puppy dogs, and ice cream.

(That was a joke for you sarcastically challenged)

I hope that next to last sentence was bait for some kinda fish other than this one. That particular line is shop worn and obviously so inaccurate as to be silly. Not to say you won't get any nibbles. A strip of beer can with a hook on one end and split ring to tie to on the other will catch fish. Just use a leader that can handle a brush with the can.
I'm glad the --Monitor is still sustaining their reputation. The only outrage that should arouse will likely come from the "moderate" Muslims.

Lemme give my 2 cents since I am one of those that "just can't keep his mouth shut" types...as well as one that ties his desert boots on every day now for over 10 years:

The credit goes to those in the ring...and as I see that most of the board here supports the military, that is what us Soldiers truly appreciate in life, at least from my observed opinion.

I cannot, nor will I ever support the murder of the innocent, even in the perils and chaos of war. Now that being said...let us not fully judge those for whom this topic has been started. Let that be done by their peers...fellow Soldiers. Then, when put on trial and all is said and done...it is done.

There are far better stories of success going on across the military, for which is worth your time to comment on...more so than this topic. I have to say that there are more words and opinions thrown out here by those that do not wear the uniform than most Soldiers that I have served with collectively. WE (the Soldiers) really DON'T talk about it that much.

But know this...we have the right to 4+ pages of comments because of those in uniform. Respect that please...and thank a Soldier for his/her service whenever available. You can't truly imagine what an honor it is to have you do that....makes the sacrifice well worth it. God bless America and the United States Military.

SSG Justin Fordice (haverodwill fish)
2006 Fort Lewis and I Corps NCO of the Year

You have a seat in my boat anytime Sarg.....just let me know. And by the way, Thanks.

"Did it ever occur that quite possibly a soldier believes in what he/she is doing? I doubt that they want anything more than to feel proud and appreciated. They stepped up and regardless the outcome, I owe them much."

Thank YOU Slab!!!

HaveRodwillfish,

This is a very difficult subject to write about. Its especially difficult because many people automatically assume that lack of support for going to war equals lack of support for our troops in combat. More importantly, is that professional soldiers such as yourself, will take this debate as a criticism of the work you do for your country. Whether you knew it or not, I was very aware of the constant contact you kept on the phone with your subordinates that were on duty, mind half on the fishing, and the other half still "on-duty". I am sorry for any unintended offense.

However, I think you missed the point of the original post. It was not to smear our Armed Forces. It was to point out no one should be surprised when more 'Haditha' type incidents start popping up in the news. Until we start building armies out of robots, we will see the effects of combat stress get worse the longer our men are under constant threat of fire.

Indirectly, that leads to a criticism of top leadership for not having a solid plan in place prior to the start of hostilities.

Lastly, our uniformed military do talk about the war and the experience of combat. I've read more military blogs in the last 2 years than I could ever recall. And the forums on military.com are very active. In fact I think I prefer them, because there isn't a need to prove ones support of the military prior to exressing ones own opinion.


So here is the question now for you SSG Justin Fordice, and for everyone else. How does the public express its discontent with its government waging war, without alienating and offending the professional soldiers who are ordered to prosecute that war?


BTW congrats on winning the NCO of the year award, thats freakin huge. I would get an aneurysm putting in that kind of work 24/7 and still have a family. I've sent you back a response to your IM when u get a chance.

VHawk

Sarge, you an all those like you have all our sixes. Thank you for it. There are not enough words at my command to say it properly so I'll let it go at that.
And how is Hart's Lake Prairie this summer? Been there, done that, tank company, 161st inf Reg.

V....you may want to consider voicing your displeasures in a conversation not including the one where you just say, "Thanks", nor with the one whom you are thanking. "Thanks" needs to not have attached to it any qualification(s). "Thanks" is not a political podium.

Slab you might want to consider staying on topic. The whole wave the flag and strike up the band argument is a red herring. The thread is titled "Haditha, more to come", and not "Lets thank the military". This thread is concerning what should be expected to come when normal people are under constant, and repeated combat stresses, for extended tours of duty. This thread has nothing to do with whether I've ever put on a uniform. It has everything to do with taking the time to consider the lifelong impact on the psyche that combat veterans will endure as part of the price of going to war.

Slab you've never directly answered any of the questions I've brought up. Your response was always a blind appeal to emotion that in a way should be far more offensive then me pointing out that guys are going to start mentally cracking and doing some very bad things.

If nobody dissented against the war regardless of their true feelings, if we all just waved our little plastic flags and stopped asking "Is this the right war? Is this worth the price of the blood of our sons and daughters?" would that be the kind of patriot our founding fathers would have wanted?

Slab, start another thread just so we can all give our thanks. And as soon as I see it, I'll be right in there saying a genuine thanks. But on this thread I'd really like to see your answer to my last open question:

How does the public express its discontent with its government waging war, without alienating and offending the professional soldiers who are ordered to prosecute that war?

Geez Vince,....hard as I tried, I couldn't resist the bait. I swam by the offering several times, swatted at it a time or two, followed it all the way to shore before spooking........ and then I came back days later and bit anyway.... As hard as I tried, I just could help it. you trolled it by so nicely.... Let me take a crack at replying to your lure. Lest we forget what the lure was, here it is:

QUOTE: And the Christian Science Monitor is still a great source. Which is odd, because without the "Monitor" part, Christian Science is an oxymoron.

And I'll troll that one reallll slooow. Nibble, nibble is that a bite?

So, here I go....

Many of the most influential scientists in all of history have been good old fashioned Bible-believing Christians. That doesn't prove Christianity, but I do think that it's unfair to label Christains as non-scientific. Examples:

JOHANN KEPLER - The founder of physical astronomy, discovered the laws of planetary motion, proved heliocentricity of the solar sytstem, built the first ephemeris tables for tracking star motion, etc. Kepler also studied seminary, and coined the term that he was merely "Thinking God's thoughts after him." A quote from one of Kepler's books: "Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."

FRANCIS BACON - Primary person responsible for the formulation and establishment of the "Scientific Method", among other achievements. A quote from his diary: "There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the creatures, which express His power."

BLAISE PASCAL - The founder of hydrostatics, and a cofounder of hydrodynamics. First deriver of differential calculus principals. Invented the barometer, etc. Also wrote Calvinistic papers defending his faith.

ROBERT BOYLE - The founder of modern chemistry. The basic gas law in Chemistry is..... Boyle's Law. Lots of accomplishments in physics and chemistry. Yet he was very active in Christian missionary work, including Bible translation into new languages.

ISAAC NEWTON - Discovered gravity.... Ok, discovered the Law of Universal Gravitation, the three laws of motion, dynamics, developed the particle theory of light propagation, etc. , etc.
However, with all of that, he had time to write many books on biblical subjects, which profess his own belief in God. He even wrote papers refuting atheism and defending creaion and the Bible.

MICHAEL FARADAY - Certainly one of the greatest physicists of all time. He developed the sciences of electricity and magnetism, discovered electromagnetic induction, invented the generator, etc. Oh yeah, and he was a very public believer in the God of the Bible.

JOHN DALTON - The father of modern atomic theory. Had numerous important inventions and discoveries. A practicing believer his entire adulthood.

WILLIAM PROUT - As a physiologist, he was first to identify basic foodstuffs such as fats, protiens, carbohydrates, etc. As a chemist, he was first to discover that atomic weights of elements could be identified as a series of relative whole numbers. And an outspoken believer in the Bible.

SAMUEL MORSE - Invented the telegraph. The first message he sent was: "What hath God Wrought!" (Numbers 23:23). He invented lots of other cool stuff, too. A couple of years before his death, he wrote: "The nearer I approach to the end of my pilgrimage, the clearer is the evidence of the divine origin of the Bible, the grandeur and sublimity of God's remedy for fallen man are more appreciated, and the future is illuminated with hope and joy."

JOSEPH HENRY - The elctronically inclined will recognize the last name (the Henry is the unit of measure of inductance). He discovered self-induction, invented the electric motor and the galvanometer, plus a bunch of other stuff. And he made it a regular practice to stop and pray to God to ask for divine guidance at important junctures of his experiments.

MATTHEW MAURY - The founder of modern hydrography and oceanography. Psalm 8 is inscribed on his tombstone (his request).

LOUIS PASTEUR - Established Germ Theory. did the leading work on Bacteriology, developed vaccines for rabies, dyptheria, anthrax, and more. Developed the processes of pasteurization and sterilization. Arguably the greatest biologist of all time. But, in his own lifetime, he was ridiculed by most of the biological establishment for his staunch opposition to Darwin and his defense of Christianity. He obviously believed in God, as affirmed in his personal writings.

WILLIAM THOMPSON, LORD KELVIN - Numerous contributions in physics and mathematics. He established the scale of absolute temperature (degrees Kelvin). He also established thermodynamics as a formal scientific discipline. Yet another Bible-believing Christian.

JOSPEH LISTER - a surgeon who contributed greatly to the development of antiseptic surgery through the use of chemical disinfectants (where would we be without Listerine???). He publicly expressed his belief in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity more than once.

There are lots more, imcluding some from the very recent past like: George Washington Carver, Werner Von Braun, and others.

Now, I know some seriously excellent researchers who don't believe in God. But, I also know some excellent one's who do. I just don't think it's fair or accurate to paint us poor, old Bible believin' types as nonscientific idiots.

I really enjoy your posts on the fishing sites. Thanks for passing good info.

Til next time: May the Lord bless you and keep you, may he make his face to shine upon you and give you peace!... or, you can just substitute: "See you next time".javascript:void(0)
Wink

Shucks, Fisherdan, we're all smarter than them guys. Perhaps at another time in another thread I'll share with you how I came to believe. It's much akin to your post and my response. Thanks for the reminder.

You didn't mention my favorite... Einstein.

VHawk: "How does the public express its discontent with its government waging war, without alienating and offending the professional soldiers who are ordered to prosecute that war?"

V-I totally got the topic and am not whatsoever offended by what's written here. A lot of good conversation, some controversy, some solid jabs. I saw them all. Truly though, none of it bothers me. At this point, I am oblivious to opinions that aren't my own, but still read them so as to further educate myself on what others think about the War, and those waging it. I stand by my commander, legitimately, not just because it's my duty. Speaking of duty, which is one of Seven Army Values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage (LDRSHIP). Loyalty, if I had to choose one, in my opinion is first for a reason, it is the most important. I don't choose one, because they are all equally important. I live these 24/7/365. Honor is the duty in question here, and I emphatically display my displeasure in knowing that those Soldiers (Marines) may have violated that, and other personal and Army Values.

"...no one should be surprised when more 'Haditha' type incidents start popping up in the news. Until we start building armies out of robots, we will see the effects of combat stress get worse the longer our men are under constant threat of fire."

Totally agreed. No robot here, or anywhere else. War or not...there are monsters out there out of uniform as well. (Green River Killer) Look at the case of the Soldier returning home to Fort Lewis who killed his young wife not too long ago. I point out both civilian and military incidents to shed light on the fact that it's MAN that's committing the crimes. MAN, not ROBOT. I agree with you Vince. It's horrible.

Sardo: "Been there, done that, tank company, 161st inf Reg."

Thank You Sardo. Hart's Lake Prarie is same as it ever was...I think your Sherman tank tracks are still there. HA HA!!!!! I got the historical time frame correct, right? HA!!!

Great topic. I am always interested in all the opinions of the Military, though I don't agree with all of them. Again, my right, given to me by my forefathers who wore a uniform. Thank you all, and for crying out loud...can we all just

SHUT UP AND FISH!!!!!!!!!!

Vince...one more thing...the Soldiers that you and your girlfriend see ARE truly in need of some emotional support and possibly medical treatment. I am sure you or her hear them talk about the war. What you read in the forums and you HEAR someone say could be totally different. You were with me in the boat on the Cowlitz that day and know that I personally don't talk about the War too much. I would much rather, as you witnessed, talk about the things my "Professional Warriors" do well. I am a Leader in this great Army, and what some will call "blind following", I call Duty and Selfless Service, and all the other Army Values listed in one of my above posts. You will hear me talk about fishing a hunting far more that War. Ask me about my Soldiers sometime...I will tell you far more about them, then you have time for. These men and women are great. They act badly at times, but great all the same.

What I meant is: My Soldier's don't really talk about the War that much is meant in an "speaking for oneself" standpoint, meaning that, MY Soldiers don't talk about it the way that civilians do, like here in this forum. You have read just about as much of an opinion as I have on the War written above. I do my duty, proudly, daily. I have lived, will live, and will die a proud Soldier, through this war and probably more. My opinion is this: I love this country and my profession is that which requires me to provide my life for the defense of it's ideals. Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia, wherever. Call on me and my brothers in arms...we have been and will always be here. The location doesn't matter to us...it's the urge to fulfill our duty. This is an all-voluntary profession, but we are all human and you will see the disheartened "words" or hear the frustrated "voices" from all comers, even Soldiers. I'm off to bed now...not to dream or fret over war, or Hidtha, but hopefully of a day fullfiled with bent rods and silver steelies on the other end.

You, me and Wynoochie. No war, politics, or religion...game???

We had great discussions last time out. Hanging out all the time with people who think exactly the same is boring. Far better to hang out with intelligent people who force oneself to think.

Let me know what days you have off. Jessie and I are heading down to Oregon on Sunday. I'm staying in Olympia for a big party Saturday night, with lots of drunk nurses, and EMT girls with loose morals. It took some convincing to get me to stay. Maybe Saturday we can hit the water from 7am till 2pm. Call me or send me an IM.

Vince


And I think this thread is worn out. With only one other observation to make. The incident in Mahmoudiya struck me as having nothing to do with war, and everything to do with someone truly evil, seizing an opportunity. The accused was discharged with a mental illness, antisocial personality disorder. It's what used to be referred to as being a sociopath, or psychopath.

I had the misfortune a few years ago of having to spend 80 hours with an 18 y/o with the same diagnosis. Very charming kid. But something very cold and distressful having to be anywhere near him. He and two friends took a 16 y/o boy out to the woods, raped him, beat him, and shot him in the stomach. And while he was still alive set him on fire. Afterwards they all got drunk while he burned. He was at our psychiatric hosp for an independant secondary evaluation prior to sentencing. He got some leeway due to the fact he was a very innocent and tender 17 years old when he committed his crimes.

Yes, a very charming kid.

Alot of Catholics in your list FisherDan. For as much grief that the Catholic Church gets in the press (some of it deserved), they are rather forward thinking when it comes to science, compared to some other Christian churches. For example, quickly name me a famous geneticist, physicist, or cosmologist who is also a Southern Baptist...but this is a topic for another thread entirely.